Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Ian Young's Bulb Log - Feedback Forum => Topic started by: gote on December 07, 2009, 09:52:10 AM
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I hate liverwoth. Unlike other weeds that compete for light, space and nutrition, Liverworths murder by suffocation. >:(
Also I remove them by mechanical means but I have been told that they cannot stand darkness. That will make sense in a pot sown with say Leucojum since these will not show above ground until next spring. It is not helpful when they try to murder a Saxifraga.
LD Hills (The propagation of Alpines) advocates the use of potassium permanganate. I have never tried since he writes that the solution should be of such a strength that it look slike a x-penny stamp. (I do not remember which stamp).
Hills' advice is usulally very helpful but #A I did not have any British stamps, #B he does not say what thickness of the solution that gives the same colour. Thus I never tried it.
He also states that it forces earthworms in pots to the surface.
Question: has anyone tried this chemical against liverworth (or earth worms) and if so, at what strength.
Göte
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This is intriguing.... I'm on the trail of the quote, and the stamp!!
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I just spray the pots with diluted vinegar and I also wash the greenhouse windows with it, stops them turning green in the winter.
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Now then...... first point, Ian says he has never succeeded with the potassium permanganate treatemnt... at whatever solution!
Second point, with the help of my dear friend Derek Bacon, who checked Hills' quotation for me .....and reports that Hills wrote it should be pink not purple about the colour of a three penny stamp ((and that was written in 1950)), it should be in every can of water used.
So, went on search for representation of Three penny ( 3d) stamp of the period..... some slight variation...but you get the drift.....
[attach=1]
this first set is the nearest colour to the actual standard 3d 1950 version!
[attach=2]
This one from 1949
[attach=3]
this a little later from 1960
[attach=4]
this one circa 1950 Guernsey.... whic again is a good match to the first set when seen at same size.
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Thank you Maggie.
I would now be able to print my own three-penny stamps to compare with solutions of permanganate. (Hopfully without being caught as a counterfeiter ;Dt)
However, if it does not help for Ian (at whatever the concentration), it will not help for me (even in the same concentration ;) ) and I do not need to try to figure it out using counterfit postage :)
Cheers
Göte
PS
I would like to have a patent medicine against it. I once had a full square meter of the stuff in a nursery bed.
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We have rather too much of the stuff here.... the liverwort that is.Must try the diluted vinegar though I seem to recall dabbing the cups with vinegar in the past without much effect......but if it works for Michael I'll try again.
I must say, I thought the notion of Forumists printing outmoded stamps to get a colour match with a bucketful of water and potassium permanganate crystals was a most amusing one, with great prospects as a spectator sport ::) ;D
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Gote,
I first got Hills book when I started with the AGS back in the 50s then like all people when you have a new hobby I ended up with hundreds of pots of seed and I started to use it then and found if you use it before the liverwort started to grow it did keep it away but if it was already growing it took a long time.
Hope this helps,
Derek
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if you use it before the liverwort started to grow it did keep it away
AHA! There we have it... there's often a clue ,y'know!
Thanks Derek!
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Does Armillatox not kill liverwort? I used to use it for to control moss and vineweevils.
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Maggi,if the liverwort is covering the whole pot I use the vinegar undiluted with a small paintbrush,works a treat,although you still have to pick it off when it is dead.
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I have used Potassium permanganate (Condy's chrystals) at a deeper colour than the stamps and found it pretty much useless for liverwort but it did bring up the worms - don't know whether every one though - in troughs and pots. I occasionally use vinegar but have found that though it kills the liverwort at 1:1 with water, the leaching also kills everything else, even small dormant bulbs so mostly I don't use it now. I lost whole batches of Trillium rivale which were totally below the surface level of pots but nearby trays of same size plants that were not painted with the vinegar solution came up, through the liverwort. And yes, the dead liverwort still has to be removed and the "roots" (don't know the technical name for the stuff that holds it in place) pull up big blobs of soil or compost with them, a problem if the liverwort is on seed pots so overall, I prefer to deal with live liverwort and now I do this by carefully cutting it off with a scalpel, wielded at a very low angle, almost parallel with the pot surface, slicing until it is through. The rooty stuff stays but after a while dies away.
Roundup on a path always works very well to kill liverwort but after a short while it grows back stronger than ever (likewise, moss). It is definitely preferable with pots, troughs or anywhere reasonably small, to attach the beastly stuff at the very beginning of its appearance rather than let it form big patches.
Having said all that, there are botanists in the world who LOVE liverworts and spend their whole lives studying them. Some might say they are sad people. ???
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Having said all that, there are botanists in the world who LOVE liverworts and spend their whole lives studying them. Some might say they are sad people. ???
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I have met them, Lesley. When I worked at the Cruickshank Garden at Aberdeen University we had to leave some liverwort and mosses on pots so they could be used for botany classes.
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Having said all that, there are botanists in the world who LOVE liverworts and spend their whole lives studying them. Some might say they are sad people. ???
When I was a young teenager (a very long time ago) I was fascinated by liverworts (& mosses); they are indeed fascinating. This fascination - along with others - resulted in my becoming a professional biologist, though not a botanist. "Sad people"? Why is an interest in liverworts any more sad than having an interest in Crocus, Narcissus, Galanthus etc? I can think of worse things to be interested in.
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Gerry, perhaps it is the fact of an interest in something which so many of us spend such a lot of time trying to be rid of.... that's certainly sad for the lovers of the liverworts! ::)
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So sorry Gerry, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment, as many of mine are. Forgive me? Please? :-*
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Lesley - you are forgiven.
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Thank you Derek and lesley. Good information.
Does anyone know whether darkness really kills them.
Roundup seems not to affect my mosses - at least not those I am happy to have. However it seems very deadly to Athyriums.
Cheers
Göte.
PS
my Helleborus thibetanus are up 5 cm - this cannot end well. Our cold period is usually in February. Did they believe that the -5-6° we had in November was the winter and that it now is spring??
.
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Covering liverworts with sand does kill them but whether it's being in the dark or suffocation, I don't know. And again, the dead stuff still has to be removed if it's over a plant or seeds.
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Dear friends,
In Holland, there is a Bayer product called ´Mogeton´ , it contains quinoclamin and kills all mosses and liverworts. It works very well. Don´t know if you can buy it in England.
Also magnesiumsulfate (MgSO4), used dry as powder, kills it.
Good luck!
Martijn
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But Martijn, does it kill other plants as well.? Can it only be used in areas where nothing else desirable is growing or can it be used on, for example, pots with seedlings growing in them?
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Lesley,
A copy of the label information here:
http://www.progreen.co.uk/pdf/label/6888e9279c1976abdb0e1c4747514a3f.pdf
Mick
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MOGETON
Definitely not one for the amateur. Would definitely kill anything in a pot :o :o
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Hi,
The Mogeton from Bayer is safe for plants (always test first). It is used on a large scale in the Dutch Nurseries.
More info:
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nursery-weeds/research/mogeton/main_page.htm
Regards, martijn
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Martijn
Thanks for the link. You would never have quessed from the label that it was safe for plants.
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Martijn
Thanks for the link. You would never have quessed from the label that it was safe for plants.
The label in that link suggests that the chemical is offered as a s usrface cleaner for hard landscaping.... it may not actually licensed for use on plants in the UK ... even if it is widely used abroad in that context......... has anyone any further knowledge about that?
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We have assorted stuff here for a similar purpose - spray ons for concrete steps, paths, algae on timber etc. I'd never think of using them on plants.
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Well at the bottom of the label, it does say something about (un) safety to plants :-\ :
"
Safety to plants
Mogeton is unlikely to harm higher plants (except ferns) and surfaces may be treated right up to lawn edges
or behind bushes. However, general over spraying of vegetation is bad practice and should be avoided.
Mosses and liverworts can be damaged if touched by the spray."
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Thank you very much Martijn !!!
This is most useful and encouraging informetion.
Horray
Göte
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Just reading the posts on liverwort and I started thinking I haven't had much the last 18 months. I wondered whether it is because an old gardener told me to put yellow sulphur on the compost before adding grit as he said he found it prevented stem rot. Question is has this reduced the problem as I only get the odd bit on pots these days.
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I was told that Baking Powder kills it (that's Sodium bicarbonate and Tartaric acid, I think). I've tried it a couple of times on seed trays and it worked (just applied it as a powder sprinkled on the leaves).
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Does the baking powder have any effect on already germinated seedlings or can it only be used on ungerminated seeds?
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Does the baking powder have any effect on already germinated seedlings or can it only be used on ungerminated seeds?
I was wondering myself if it would have the effect of "raising" them up?? ;)
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Nicely puffed and ready to sprinkle with grated cheese and place under a hot grill? :) Sorry, it's just about lunchtime and my mind's turning that way. It's very cold here today but with very welcome rain.
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Maggi,
I came very late to this very interesting thread and on reading through it your pictures of sundry postage stamps sent me off down memory lane to twenty plus years of stamp collecting and dealing. And on this bitterly cold day, with Margaret away for a week, that was a lovely, if unintended thing to do. Jim
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Maggi,
I came very late to this very interesting thread and on reading through it your pictures of sundry postage stamps sent me off down memory lane to twenty plus years of stamp collecting and dealing. And on this bitterly cold day, with Margaret away for a week, that was a lovely, if unintended thing to do. Jim
Serendipity, Jim, it's a wonderful thing.... I love the little pleasures that a digression along life's highway can bring..... good to treasure these wees trolls along a less trodden path!
Hope Margaret is keeping better and enjoying her break, by the way :-*
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What I forgot to add was that a common problem with old letters and stamps is foxing, which I understand is a form of fungus, and this we treated where possible with repeated applications of a weak solution of chloromine T/ chloromin Tee, itself a weak bleach, applied with a small paint brush with some good results. It used to be available from any good chemist shop but possibly/probably any form of bleach, however weak, would be unsuitable for use with plants?
Thank you for your good wishes for Margaret which I will pass on. Jim
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How well I remember hours spent with chloromine T, treating foxing in old prints , maps and watercolours... it seems a lifetime ago......well, it pretty much was a lifetime ago!
Sadly it will need to become a regular feature around here again as some of our watercolour collection, not painted on acid free papers, are beginning to suffer..... a big job, when it is finally started. :-X
Never tried the chloromine T on any bulbs, so I don't know what the reaction might be.... ???
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I woke up this thread because I found a way of preventing liverwort which works out quite well for me. Adding a thin layer of woodchips on top of the liverwort prevents them from getting any sun and they die away. Normally this will not stop them from growing on top of the new layer, which they will do after some time if you use sand or gravel as top layer. The liverwort however does not seem to get a grip on the woodchips. I think the chips dry out too quickly and will thus prevent the liverwort from finding a permanent place for moisture. The rough surface will further prevent them to form mats. Further advantages are that it's environmentally friendly and most plants and even seedlings can easily grow through the woodchips. I have tested it through spring and summer and have good hope it will still work for autumn and winter. Hopefully more people will have success.
Rob