Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Ian Young's Bulb Log - Feedback Forum => Topic started by: Alan B on February 04, 2008, 08:55:04 PM
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A question for the galanthophiles. This weekend I found some pots of galanthus in a garden centre labelled (with the usual type of plastic label that makes you at least think they must be right) which they called galanthus worronii.
I'm no expert on these and cannot find a reference to this name. Could they be woronowii which someone has just got the name wrong on ?
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Yes, that'll be it, Alan.
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Many people I know call them woronii. I was in Homebase last night a saw dozens of woronowii labelled as nivalis. All non flowering bulbs. When they are reduced I'll consider buying them. I did buy two Hellebores. One apple green with red spots and one yellow with red spots
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Well what I would like to know from any latin expert is this, are they pronounced Woronowii, Woronovii or Voronovii ?
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clem-at-is clemat-is cle-mate-is
I say woronov-e-i, a friend says woronov-e-e
I say and know how wrong it is to say el-wheez-e-i.
It should be, I was told on Sunday elwes (wes as in west)-e-i
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clem-at-is clemat-is cle-mate-is
I say woronov-e-i, a friend says woronov-e-e
I say and know how wrong it is to say el-wheez-e-i.
It should be, I was told on Sunday elwes (wes as in west)-e-i
Because it's named after Henry Elwes, and the plant name should be pronounced the same as the person's name. Although I've always (and my parents have always) tended to pronounce it more like elwees-ee-i like Mark (and like a lot of other growers). When in polite snowdrop company I try to make it more elw-e-s-ee-i, as in the Elwes name.
Woronowii should also be pronounced as the person's name is pronounced. According to Ivi (who speaks Polish and Russian as well as Slovak and Czech - and Hungarian!), Woronow is a Polish name, although it could be a Russian with a Polish name, but whichever, it's someone (a botanist I think) with a Slavic name, which should be pronounced Voronov, so it ought really to be Gal. voronovii. But I've never heard anyone pronounce it any other way then Woronovii. (whether you say ee-ee at the end or ee-i seems to vary from one person to another. I was brought up to say ee-i).
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My mum used to have a friend called Elwes and she was Mrs 'Ell-youse' ::) ::) ???
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Woronow is a Polish name, although it could be a Russian with a Polish name, but whichever, it's someone (a botanist I think) with a Slavic name, which should be pronounced Voronov, so it ought really to be Gal. voronovii. But I've never heard anyone pronounce it any other way then Woronovii.
Thank you Martin that is exactly in line with my thoughts, perhaps I should start a movementto pronounce it with two v's!
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I agree with Maritn that botanical names based on personal names should be pronounced, in so far as common sense euphony allows, the same as the person’s name. However, we immediately encounter some problems when we attempt to do this.
If the person’s name is from one of the Germanic languages (including English), there is an immediate problem for longer names. In those languages, the stress is generally on the first syllable of a word. In Latin, the stress always falls on one of the last three syllables. That gives us two choices: mangle the pronunciation of the name or mangle the pronunciation of the Latin. Since such names are by nature honorific, what sense does it make to mangle the pronunciation of the name? I say in such cases mangle the Latin and hope you don’t encounter the sort of Romans portrayed by Monty Python.
I extend this principle also to botanical names based on non-English personal names. We have to keep in mind that other languages use the same alphabet we do, but sometimes with very different intentions. Seemingly unpronounceable names such as Ligularia przewalskii become easy once you are assured by someone who speaks Polish that the name in question (forget the spelling) is pronounced she-wal-skee (where the e in she is meant to represent a sound like the e in shed). My own name also begins, in its commonly written form, with three consonants: mck. What in the world do those who do not speak English make of that?
Once one accepts that the letters of the Latin alphabet do not necessarily represent the same sounds represented by those same letters in English, then certain other seemingly awkward words such as Buddleja become easy and certainly more euphonious.
Thanks Mark for clarifying the el-wes vs. el-wheez business. With respect to the el-wes- ee-eye and el-wes-ee-ee business, place me firmly in the el-wes-e-ee camp, with the understanding that the third e from the end represents a short vowel sound, the following ee cluster represents a long vowel sound.
To my tastes, the pronunciation el-WHEEZ-ee-eye is “wrong” on at least three counts. Frist, thanks to Mark I now know it distorts the pronunciation of the name of the person honored. Second, it mutilates the pronunciation of the Latin vowels. Third, it puts the stress/accent on the wrong syllable according to the Latin rules. If the ee in the ee-eye ending represents a long vowel sound, then according to the Latin rules the name would be pronounced el-wheez-EE-eye: bad all around.
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Jim out of interest are you M/Kenney, where M is said muh, or MacKenney.
In N Ireland, and possible Scotland, we would say McBride as MacBride and McCabe as M/Cabe.
Now that I've written this I dont know how to describe the short M sound
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Mark, the current members of our immediate family pronounce it MaKENney rather than MacKenney. I've heard some of my relations pronounce it MacKenney. My father was nicknamed Mac by his coworkers, so perhaps he (sometimes) pronounced it MacKenney. The family is from Scotland via Northern Ireland - but I know the history only back into the eighteenth century.
Family names over here generally come to be pronounced according to the sensibilities of the majority of speakers rather than according to family tradition - unless of course the family puts up a continual fight. We do hilarious things to names of German, French, Italian, Spanish, Polish origin - to cite just a few examples.
Here's an example: I heard an interview with a musician named Kapilow. Over here, his name is pronounced as written: ka-pil-low. He told the story of his time in France studying with an elderly French musician who always called him ka-pee-lof (that's probably pretty close to what the name was before we got our hands on it).
Here's an example which brings it back to plants. How should one pronounce the word bigelovii as in Scoliopus bigelovii? The American botanist honored by the name almost certainly said Bigelow. But his ancestors probably said Bigelof or Bigelov. The "Latinized" name only makes the question that much more tantalizing: the letter v in conventional Latin is pronounced as w, but that's one of those conventions more often honored in the breach.
For those who are curious, I pronounce the name big-e-low-e-ee. If someone can provide proof that Bigelow pronounced his name otherwise, I'll be glad to change.
Before leaving this, let's also look at the word Scoliopus. To me, it's Sco-LE-o-pus, although I generally hear it pronounced sco-lee-O-pus. (Some wit out there is no doubt about to ask me just how many times I've actually heard anyone utter that word!). But the o before the p is definitely a short o, so I stand my ground.
If any of you are wondering how I can say that that o is definitely short, here's the answer. It's a Greek word, and in Greek, different letters are used for long and short o: it's that simple!
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I hear Americans on TV murdering Irish and English names
I say big love e i
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big love e i ;D ;D ;D
Mark, that reminds me of that joke about the man who goes to the doctor complaining about the herpes infection in his eye. The doctor tells him he's been looking for love in all the wrong places.
I will not be using that pronunciation - but I won't be forgetting it, either. Good one! ;)
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Mark, we’re indiscriminately innovative with names. Language by language, we have incorporated some of the phonology of a lot of languages. Right now, the average American is learning Spanish. He grew up saying Bah-ja California, pronouncing the j as the j in James. Now, those of an intermediate level of sophistication know to say Bah-ha California. Progress? Not exactly: most Americans will never learn to pronounce the Califronia part of Baja California correctly. These sophisticates of intermediate level say Bah-ha Kal-ee-FORN-ya. Those who have truly arrived (in their own estimation at any rate) say Bah-ha Kah-lee-FORRRRR-nee-ah. We’re still working on rolling the r.
Volkswagen (“folksvagen”) will probably always be Volts-wagen. The test of a good radio announcer on the music stations is his handling of this phrase: “we’ve just heard the Euryanthe overture by Karl Maria von Weber”.
You don’t want to know what we do to French.
We love Italian, so much that we generally work hard to improve it by dropping all final vowels, hopelessly confusing the ci, chi thing, doing uncouth things with g and not wanting to be bothered with the distinction between single and double consonants.
The French and the Italians do have a bit to answer for. Look what happened to chicory. It started out in Greek as kichoreia (kee-kho-ray-a), the Romans made it cichoreum, the Italians eventually came to pronounce the ci as English chi, the French heard that and respelled the word chicorée, and we, evidently not knowing any better, took up their bad habits in part. Thus, the ch has moved from the middle of the word to the beginning.
Mark, when you say we Americans mispronounce English and Irish names, I’m sure you’re right. I’m clueless about the pronunciation of English names such as Backhouse (Back-house? Bak-ouse? Bacus? Bak-hoo-zee?), Gravetye (gravity? Grave tie, as in the tie one wears to funerals or gets buried in? ) and lots of others. I’ve listened to some BBC broadcasts of dramatizations and for the life of me I sometimes can’t understand every other word. That suggests to me that there is still a lot of uncertainty about how to pronounce the mother tongue on the home turf.
Here’s something you can perhaps help me with: how is the name Sloane generally pronounced in the UK and Ireland? I’ve always pronounced it slown with a long o sound – or the word slow with an n sound tacked on at the end.
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s (as in slice) own
gravetye is grave tie and is grave tie giant.
How did the h ever get dropped from herb?
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What do you mean, how did the H get dropped? Some of you over there might have dropped it, but some of us immediately picked it up.
In my experience, the masculine name Herb is always pronounced with the H. I’ve never heard anyone refer to an “erbaceous” border, although I guess it appens. ;)
In my circle, the word herb as applied to plants seems to get the H about as often as it does not. I’m not consistent in this myself: some contexts seem to call for the H, in others it seems uncouth.
What I always look for are signs of a sensitive editor: if the editor respects the pronunciation of the writer, then herb will appear as either an herb or a herb depending on the pronunciation intended.
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Mark, let's go back to Sloane again.
You wrote "s (as in slice) own"
So while you're wondering how the h in herb got dropped, I'm wondering what happened to the L in Sloane.
You meant "sl (as in slice) own" didn't you? Or did you?
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yes I did mean sl. I'm juggling work and play time at the same time
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yes I meant herbs. One TV I always hear 'erbs
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Jim,
I have a friend in Westminster, Maryland, and as with yourself and Mark we regularly have fun with language, its various and different uses on both sides of the Atlantic, the different meaning given to words and phrases etc. It's a bit of fun.
Worst of all is humour (humor). It took a great while for us to become accustomed to each others humour. Here in Ireland we have a habit of 'slagging off' our friends - disparaging remarks but meant in a humourous manner; the closer the friend the more one can be disparaging. However for one not used to this sort of humour it can read as being very insulting.
Oscar Wilde, an Irish playwright, referred to America and Ireland as two countries separated by a common language.
Paddy
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Don't think it was Ireland Paddy?
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Slagg off to your heart's content, Paddy, I can take it!
In fact, it's a common practice here, too, although it's not something one does with strangers. It's an odd way of showing affection. ::)
I don't get to Westminster, Maryland very often - there is a once famous nursery there which I try to visit every few years. It's about an hour's drive from here.
Mark, 'erbs seems to have some sort of association with those who like to Frenchify things over here - or the sort of people who were called Jeffery until they discovered the difference between herb and 'erb and then changed their name to Geoffrey or something like that.
Now here's something else I wonder about, something with a musical/zoological flavor. In Handel's Messiah there is that line "leaps like an hart". I've never been sure what to make of that. What sort of beast is an 'art (or is it a nart?) ? And does it eat 'erbs?
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"Hart" is an old term for a deer, could be a stag or a hind, which is only seen nowadays (the term, not the animals) in ancient manuscripts, folk songs, poems and the like.
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I knew that, Maggie. I also know why they are so uncommon now: they have a hard time eating because so many gardeners have cut out their tongues for decorating their ferneries. ::)
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Who's this Maggie?
Sorry. :-[
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I also know why they are so uncommon now:
Bother, that was what I was going to tell you next >:(
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And does it eat 'erbs?
In Newfoundland they drop the first "h" but sometimes add one if a word begins with a vowel!
I remember on my first trip there I overheard a phone conversation at a garden centre. Someone had phoned with a question. "Yes" the owner replied, "we have plastic and steel". The caller must have been puzzled as the owner replied "oh edging, I thought you said hedging, yes we have plenty of bareroot ones, harctic willow and efty privet".
johnw
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The fishermen on the Swedish east coast outside Stockholm are known for dropping initial H and putting it in before a vowel. It is rather strange that this is a phenomenon that appears localized and independently. It is the same with the fricative pronunciation of I (ee for you Anglosaxons) that occurs in Chinese Japanese and some Swedish dialects.
Now speaking of honorific meaning of plant names what about a Swedish gentleman from two hundred years ago.
His father was a parson and since the clergy latinized their names, his father used the name Linnaeus (we can ignore why). The parson got a son and named him Karl which in those days was customary to spell Carl .
The young man became a scientist and since scientists wrote in Latin he signed Carolus Linnaeus. He became a very famous scientist and the crown recognized that by making him a knight. As a token of this, his named was officially changed to the customary form for the nobility which became Carl von Linné. And this is the form always used in his homeland. To call him Linnaeus today is like calling the British Queen Princess Elisabeth or perhaps the Prince of Wales Mr Battenberg. :P Of course if you write in Latin it is OK to call him Linnaeus
Ave a nice Heaster
Göte