Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Leena on November 06, 2023, 09:27:40 AM

Title: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 06, 2023, 09:27:40 AM
November has started mild, but next week it will be colder again. Flowering plants are almost over, and foliage is more interesting now.
Here are some ferns, and Meconopsis and a view of my woodland beds.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 06, 2023, 09:28:40 AM
Last colchicums in a shady spot.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Stefan B. on November 06, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
Leena, I always enjoy looking at your photos.
I don't remember such a dry and warm autumn, but I still managed to save the plants with a lot of watering...
(https://i.imgur.com/LmJm4aN.jpg)
Hamamelis vernalis 'Quasimodo'

(https://i.imgur.com/c3DvA88.jpg)
Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Chirimen'

We are now ready for winter...if it comes.
(https://i.imgur.com/9bwaywo.jpg)
Gaura lindheimeri 'The Bride'

Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Stefan B. on November 06, 2023, 07:29:20 PM
Here are some photos of plants that are currently blooming
(https://i.imgur.com/m8MKUek.jpg)
Disanthus cercidifolius

(https://i.imgur.com/tkTwkNi.jpg)
Primula vulgaris Belarina 'Valentine'

(https://i.imgur.com/2QpY6Jq.jpg)
Mahonia eurybracteata subsp.ganpinensis 'Soft Caress'
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 08, 2023, 09:52:46 AM
Thank you Stefan. :)
I can see your dry and sunny autumn from your pictures!
Here it has been a rainy October, it has rained 140mm in October. The first week of November was cloudy and warm (+7C) and next week it will be below freezing.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: ruweiss on November 08, 2023, 09:28:27 PM
Leena and Stefan,
many thanks for your posts. We still had no frost until now and the day temperatures
are still unusually high. Magnolia x soulangeana has bright autumn colors and Poncirus
trifpliata forms ripe fruits. They are practcally inedible, but the seedlings of them are the
perfect rootstocks for all the Citrus plants.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Gabriela on November 11, 2023, 10:14:33 PM
Nice to see fall imagery from other countries!

In this part of Ontario we are still having a nice weather for this time of year, and the nights min. have been only down to -5C and just for few days. As a surprise there is one more Crocus banaticus flowering (from a younger batch)  and a hardy Chrysanthemum I have raised from a cutting, I don't know its name. 
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Hakonechloa and the Northern oats grass in fall mood.
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 12, 2023, 03:36:12 PM
Wonderful autumn colours, Rudi and Gabriela. :)
Gabriela, what is the plant in the last picture (in the background) with deep orange red foliage?
Here it has been rainy and cloudy, but one day last week sun peaked from clouds so I could take some pictures.
Geraniums are having nice colours now, 'Sirak' and Geranium x magnificum 'Rosemoor'
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Mariette on November 13, 2023, 11:11:08 AM
Leena, Stefan, Rudi and Gabriela: You all seem to enjoy a very colourful November! Thank You for Your beautiful pics!

Leena, geraniums seem to colour far better in Finland than in Germany! When seeing the fiery tints of Betula nana, the polar birch, I got interested in this shrub, but learnt, that it doesn´t colour in Germany as well as in Lappland.

Here I found just one red leaf on a Geranium sylvaticum seedling.

(https://up.picr.de/46621478ow.jpg)

Hydrangea macrophylla ´Blaumeise´ produces only fertile flowers at this time of the year.

(https://up.picr.de/46621463ba.jpg)

A shrub which colours well for me every autumn is Spiraea betulifolia ´Tor Gold´, even showing tiny flowers after 4 months with 400 mm of rainfall. Leucanthemum x superbum ´Bröllopsgåvan´ adding contrast, and Brunnera macrophylla starts to flower again, too.

(https://up.picr.de/46621472sz.jpg)

Still some of the tall phloxes show their less well-formed autumnal flowers, too.

(https://up.picr.de/46621466tl.jpg)

This bergenia, probably ´Herbstblüte´, may flower anytime from spring till autumn. As we had no frost yet, Persicaria microcephala ´Dragon Blood´ looks still good, too.

(https://up.picr.de/46621462ap.jpg)
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Gabriela on November 15, 2023, 12:42:29 AM
Mariette - you still have many flowers for mid-November!

Many Geraniums usually take a nice color when the weather gets cooler in the fall, but it varies, we had a warm one this year and many species didn't color as nice as in previous years, some not at all.

Leena - in the background of the Northern oat grass is Acer palmatum 'Shindeshojo'. This year was not very beautiful, so here's an image of last year. I don't have nice depth to take a full picture (without the neighbor's fence). Actually the grass is on its left, I took the picture from a side, being a very narrow bed.
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 23, 2023, 04:04:27 PM
Gabriela, thank you for the picture. Your Acer is beautiful. :)

Mariette, this year autumn colours to Geraniums came late, but they get nice colours almost every year here.

Since I last wrote we have had a week of temperatures below freezing, and no snow. The first picture is from a week ago.
Then yesterday there was rain and a bit of snow and plus-temperatures, but from tomorrow on temperatures will go below freezing again and stay there, so winter has come.
I hope we get even a little more snow to protect the plants tomorrow.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Gabriela on November 25, 2023, 01:09:49 AM
Gabriela, thank you for the picture. Your Acer is beautiful. :)

Mariette, this year autumn colours to Geraniums came late, but they get nice colours almost every year here.

Since I last wrote we have had a week of temperatures below freezing, and no snow. The first picture is from a week ago.
Then yesterday there was rain and a bit of snow and plus-temperatures, but from tomorrow on temperatures will go below freezing again and stay there, so winter has come.
I hope we get even a little more snow to protect the plants tomorrow.

You surely need more snow Leena!
We are not in the winter territory yet, soon enough it seems.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 25, 2023, 04:11:52 PM
You surely need more snow Leena!
We are not in the winter territory yet, soon enough it seems.

Lucky for you! :) I hope there will be more snow next week here.

Yesterday there was maybe one or two cm more snow, now it is -10 and temperature is dropping.
Some pictures from today, there was sun! :)
Helleborus and Epimedium 'Orange Königin' which is very hardy. I expect it to be ok in the spring.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Robert on November 25, 2023, 06:29:44 PM
Hi Leena,

I enjoyed your last photograph of your garden with the snow.  8)

Thank you so much for your kind comments on the Crocus thread. It is always good to know that there are at least a few Forumists that read my postings and are interested in our gardening activities here in California as well as my botanical activities in the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

Although our gardening situations are very different, I have always enjoyed your postings. I am keenly interested in how different plant species respond in your climatic and gardening environment. I learn a great deal. Thank you.

In the spring you expressed an interest in the Genus “Dodecatheon” (lumped into the Genus Primula here in California). Are you continuing to trial plants of this Genus in your garden?

Here in California I have been working with our local Dodecatheon species. Our low elevation species are summer dormant, intolerant of summer moisture, and not hardy to extreme cold. However, there is a great deal of genetic variability within the genome of each species. For example, there are populations of Dodecatheon hendersonii from Idaho that possess genes that allowed their ancestors to survive the extreme winter of 1889-90 that ravaged the cattle industry in the Great Basin of Nevada and the Snake River Basin in southern Idaho. I have yet to obtain seeds from plants in this region, but I would enjoy evaluating plants from this region. Employing these into my breeding program might yield practical horticultural results for gardens. Who knows unless one systematically puts out the effort?

Anyway, if you decide to grow various forms of Dodecatheon in your garden I will be keenly interested in your results. Thank you again for sharing so much.

We also took interest in your photos and discussion of weather in your area.
Here in Northern California the weather has turned much colder. The first killing frost arrived at our Placerville farm yesterday, 24 November. This is 3 weeks later than what was the average first killing frost date at our Placerville farm 30 years ago. 30 years ago, I remember snow on 31 October! Today, 25 November it was 10 F (-12.2 C) in some of the cold air basins of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. At some high elevation sites yesterday’s high temperature was 28 F (-2,2 C). Strong, desiccating, freezing winds were blowing. Fortunately there is some, but much below average, snow cover to protect the plants at these sites. At other high elevation west slope (Sierra Nevada Mountains) sites there is no snow cover at all. At these locations there are some plant species that can be vulnerable when below freezing temperatures penetrate deep into the soil. I have measured soil temperatures at various high elevation sites over the years. Temperatures below 32 F (0 C) rarely penetrate below 10 cm when there is snow cover. When there is no snow cover, temperatures well below 32 F (0 C) penetrate well below 15 cm below the surface of the soil. Depending on the time of year, and other weather conditions, such as desiccating winds, and the plant species, these temperatures can cause a great deal of damage. I am sure that many that gardeners in Northern Europe and snowier countries and zones are very aware of these challenging gardening situations.

Hopefully all in snow country will have plentiful snow cover this winter to protect their gardens.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 25, 2023, 07:03:53 PM
Thank you Robert. :)
I don't comment much, because the plants which you grow are strange to me, so I don't have anything to say about them, but I like the landscapes in the mountains and what you tell about how it is evolving and how plants are responding to changing climate. You have so vast amount of plants to grow over there. Also your own hybridizing is interesting.

In the spring you expressed an interest in the Genus “Dodecatheon” (lumped into the Genus Primula here in California). Are you continuing to trial plants of this Genus in your garden?

Well yes, I have some Dodecatheons  grown from seeds from Kris from Canada, so they have been hardy also here. Unfortunately I mixed up some of the seedlings and now I'm not sure which is which. I hope in time I can clear this and be able to identify what I grow! At least when white D.pulchellum flowers (hopefully next year) I can tell how pulchellum is different from jeffreyi (if there are differences in height or in flowers). So far pulchellum, meadia and possibly jeffrey and amethystinum (if it is true) have been hardy here. Actually much hardier than many Primulas. It might also be a matter of my soil, not so much temperatures, why I have trouble growing many Primulas, but anyway those Dodecatheons seem to grow quite well (I hope these are not the famous last words).

Like you wrote, it isn't always the low temperatures which are bad, if there is snow cover. Worse have been warmer periods in the middle of winter when snow has melted, but ground is still frozen and it rains and then freezes and rains and freezes. This has happened more these past years when climate is changing. Also when it rains a lot in autumn just before winter is bad in my clay soil, and I should make more effort to make higher raised beds.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Robert on November 26, 2023, 07:54:03 PM
Hi Leena,

I thought you might enjoy these photographs of some of our local high elevation Primula (Dodecatheon) species.

[attachimg=1]

This photograph of Primula (Dodecatheon) jeffreyi was taken on 20 July 2017 on my way to Red Peak at an elevation of 6,793 ft. (2,071 meters) in the Sierra Nevada Mountains of California. I have observed this population for many years. During wet years this population thrives, yet during extremely dry seasons this site can become very dry and the plants go into premature dormancy.

Another population of this species can be found growing on the banks of a stream in a meadow that was once a shallow lake when the last Ice Age ended. The meadow is very hydric. Even during seasons of extreme drought the parts of the meadow near the stream remain hydric. Based on my observations, it seems possible that Dodecatheon jeffreyi would grow well in your garden, despite your heavy clay. A raised bed with plenty of organic material in the soil would likely please them even more.

[attachimg=2]

I took this photograph of Primula tetrandra on 24 August 2017 on the banks of Island Lake at an elevation of 8,145 ft. (2,483 meters). This site is near the crest of the Crystal Range and is a true alpine setting. I always find his species growing in hydric to near hydric sites. This species is quite small and is likely better planted in an alpine type garden rather than a perennial type border.

Primula tetrandra is very closely related to Primula jeffreyi. The two species often hybridize with each other in the wild. In these situations the distinction between the two species becomes blurred. This situation occurs with many of our native “Dodecatheon” species. There are gradations in characteristics as the low elevation species Primula clevelandii (edge of the foothills) merges with low-mid elevation populations of Primula hendersonii (foothills). At higher elevations Primula hendersonii blends with low elevation forms of Primula subalpina (mountains), and so on. Unless great care is taken in garden situations most Dodecatheon seeds offered by collectors are likely hybrids.

The nomenclature of Dodecatheon can get confusing. For example, here in California the Genus Dodecatheon has been merged into the Genus Primula. The previous name for Primula tetrandra was Dodecatheon alpinum. At times the name Doddecatheon jeffreyi var. alpinum was used instead of Dodecatheon alpinum. Considering all the name changes, and the propensity for the species to easily hybridize with each other in cultivation, it can frequently be extremely difficult to know what one has in their garden. Having an accurate history of a plant’s origin makes positive identification possible if this is an important consideration.

[attachimg=3]

One last photograph…

Primula hendersonii and Ranunculus occidentalis var. occidentalis growing in the wild on our farm property in Placerville, California.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Mariette on November 27, 2023, 11:20:57 AM
Leena, Your beautiful pictures make me long for a spell of winter - snow has become a very rare event here within the last 25 years. Also, I marvel at the range of plants You´re able to grow so high up in the North, as I failed to cultivate them here. Dodecatheon/Primula - species, for instance, always died away in spells of severe drought, whereas other plants are killed in times of the very very wet conditions we face here, as well.

Strobilanthes penstemonoides flowers till the start of frost, which may be expected in our part of the world during the next nights.

(https://up.picr.de/46691588sy.jpg)

The hydrangeas enjoyed the 900 mm of rainfall we had this year till now and show fresh flowers, faded ones as well as some autumn colour of the leaves at the same time.

(https://up.picr.de/46691589zm.jpg)

The sasanqua camellias are flowering now, this is ´Hiryu´.

(https://up.picr.de/46652327jy.jpg)

Sarcococca orientalis starts to flower very early, this year. The flowers are not showy, but the scent is great.

(https://up.picr.de/46652329lv.jpg)

Once I grew Malva sylvestris ´Primley Blue´, which was short-lived here as all plants of this species. Occasionally a similar seedling turned up, but this year I was surprised by a deep blue one.  :)

(https://up.picr.de/46691590ou.jpg)
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 27, 2023, 03:08:37 PM
Based on my observations, it seems possible that Dodecatheon jeffreyi would grow well in your garden, despite your heavy clay. A raised bed with plenty of organic material in the soil would likely please them even more.

At higher elevations Primula hendersonii blends with low elevation forms of Primula subalpina (mountains), and so on. Unless great care is taken in garden situations most Dodecatheon seeds offered by collectors are likely hybrids.

Robert, thank you for your pictures and observations about Dodecatheon/Primula in your area. It was very interesting,
and you could be right that D.jefferyi would grow well in my heavy clay. It keeps moisture even during dry periods quite well, without watering if I have some mulch on top. Many times when I have posted pictures people have been wondering how lush it can look even after dry periods. The downside is that it can be very wet also in winter and thus freezes deep, and some plants (quite a lot actually) don't like it and die. I have tried to do my woodland beds as raised beds made on top of natural soil with leaf mold and such, but there seems never to be enough compost and leaf mold for all places.

It is good to know that they hybridize easily even in nature, so for sure they will do that in gardens. On the other hand I like to know what is what, but on the other hand the most important is to get good garden plants which give me joy and grow well. :)

In this years seed exchange there are souple of Dodecatheons unknown to me.
D.clevelandii, maybe this is not hardy enough to grow here?
D.frigidum, this would be worth a try, do you thing?
D.pauciflorum, google says it is a synonym of D.meadia, but does anyone know if there are differences in them and what they are?

I looked up how deep the ground frost is here in avarage, and in my region the average between 1981- 2010 in open clay soil has been around 45cm and in forests in sandy soil 20cm, but it varies a lot from year to year. There have been winters like 2019-2020 when there was hardly no ground frost at all (that was my dream winter with only two weeks of snow and cold), and then there has been winters with ground frost as deep as 90cm. Ground frost is usually the deepest at the end of winter, but some years it can freeze deep even in the beginning if there is not much snow (like now and 2021-2022).

Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on November 27, 2023, 03:14:27 PM
Thank you Mariette. :) Many plants are surprisingly hardy, and it is only by trying them how you find out which ones would grow here (and in my soil and garden - I know people who are able to grow some plants much farther north when I can't succeed here. It is always a matter of soil, too).

Once I grew Malva sylvestris ´Primley Blue´, which was short-lived here as all plants of this species. Occasionally a similar seedling turned up, but this year I was surprised by a deep blue one.  :)

That is a beautiful colour. I haven't seen it before. I grow Malva sylvestris ssp mauritiana which is purple, and it is annual here, but it's seeds survive the winter most of the time, so I get new plants from them almost every year. I use it's flowers in herb tea.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Mariette on November 27, 2023, 04:05:42 PM
Yes, the deep blue is very nice.  :) When I bought ´Primley Blue´decades ago, it was the only blueflowering selection available. Nowadays, there are several others, like ´Blue Fountain´and ´Marina´s Blue Eyes´, as I found out. In my garden, Malva sylvestris is very short-lived, too. As I grow ssp mauritiana as well, I imagine, my deep blue-flowered seedling may be a cross between ´Primley Blue´and that subspecies.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Robert on November 27, 2023, 06:18:56 PM
Hi Leena,

[attachimg=1]

This is a photograph from the top of Table Mountain in Butte County, California taken on 4 November 2016. This is at the beginning of the rainy season and the annual grasses are beginning to grow among the dry plant remains from the summer dry season. Dodecatheon clevelandii can be found on Table Mountain. Daytime high temperatures frequently reach 110 to 115 F (43.3 C to 46.1 C) during the summer and there is more or less no precipitation during the 4 months of “summer” weather. To survive such an environment Dodecatheon clevelandii becomes completely dormant during the summer. During the winter months there can be a great deal of precipitation. Table Mountain is part of the remains of an ancient Basalt lava flow. There is not much soil and the drainage is poor. Many vernal pools form during the winter. These pools are habitat for many unique plant species that bloom in rings around the edges of the pools as the water recedes during the spring. During good seasons the wildflowers can be spectacular!

Dodecatheon clevelandii is found in similar habitats throughout California. Most likely this species would not grow at all in your climate – too cold during the winter – too wet during the summer – however for the adventuresome it might be fun to try it anyway. Who knows what surprises might arise.

[attachimg=2]

This is a view of Table Mountain from the Sacramento Valley. Many seasonal waterfall form during the rainy season and they are quite beautiful.

[attachimg=3]

This is another scene from the top of Table Mountain with the Sutter Buttes in the distance. This is one of my favorite scenes to enjoy from the top of Table Mountain, especially as dusk approaches. I have a better photograph of this scene on another computer that I will have to transfer.

I will continue this thread the next time I have time to write. I have a few comments concerning the other Dodecatheon species that you mentioned that might be of interest to many of the Forumist out there.

Mariette,

Wonderful photograhs from your garden as usual.  8)   :)

Thank you for sharing the photographs and all the interesting information about your plants and garden. As I remember you are dealing with heavy clay soil. How different plants preform in this soil environment is very interesting and valuable to other gardeners.  :)
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: MarcR on November 27, 2023, 08:47:27 PM
Robert,

Those are very beautiful landscapes and very skillful photographs!
I used to enjoy hiking into remote areas taking photographs and collecting seeds.
I am now physically unable to hike or use a camera. I am still enjoying plants grown from seed collected when I was able to hike.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Redmires on November 28, 2023, 10:17:22 AM
Robert,
It was fascinating to see your photos of Table Mountain and read about the habitat. At distance, as in your first photo, the landscape looks strikingly similar to upland plateaus in the north of Britain, but it clearly isn't, because the rainfall distribution is so different! Our uplands are much wetter and the Kinder Scout plateau (fairly near me) is classified as a blanket bog. That's not actually as wet as it sounds and areas that are under water in the winter become merely damp in the summer. This year we've had a very wet autumn, so some of the patches that spend most of the winter as standing water have already been inundated.

The plant community is quite specialist and includes some real rarities, but in a panoramic view you'd see lots of heather (Calluna vulgaris), bilberries (Vaccinium myrtillus), where it's wetter, Festuca ovina, Deschampsia flexuosa, Molinia caerulea (much, much shorter and very different in appearance from all the garden cultivars). In the wetter places there are flushes of cotton grasses (Eriophorum spp. - very pretty from a distance) and lots of rushes and sedges; get closer to the ground in the wettest places and you'd see a lot of different bog mosses. Butterwort (Pinguicula vulgaris) is supposed to prefer limestone flushes, but seems to be quite common on the acidic moorlands near me, there are also lots of heath spotted orchids (Dactylorhiza maculata). It's a brilliant habitat for ground-nesting birds - I see a lot of curlews and lapwings.

I don't have any photos of the Kinder Scout plateau and couldn't find a good free one, but at least the image below shows the cotton grass nicely.
[attachimg=1]

Lower down we have floodplain meadows, which might interest you because of their links with farming. The Floodplains Partnership (https://www.floodplainmeadows.org.uk/discover/learn) says 'They were a particularly valued part of the agricultural system. Because they receive regular silt deposition from river floods, the nutrients removed in the hay crop are replenished naturally without the need for artificial fertilisers. This naturally high fertility enables the grasses to continue to grow strongly after the hay cut, allowing grazing of the 'aftermath' during August and September. Traditionally cattle grazed the meadows through the autumn with sheep in winter if the soil was not too wet.' They have info on the plant communities and biodiversity (https://www.floodplainmeadows.org.uk/discover/learn/biodiversity) if you're interested.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Robert on November 29, 2023, 05:03:09 PM
Redmires,

I found your synopsis of the Kinder Scout very fascinating. Your comment about Molina cearulea, in particular, caught my attention. Identifying horticulturally significant ecotypes within unique ecosystems is one of my avocational pursuits in my so-called “retirement”. Using these unique plants to create innovative, and useful garden plants that are reasonably easy-to-grow and accessible to gardeners is part of my miniature scaled R & D (Research and Development) pursuit here in California.

So, thank you for taking the time to share this information.

I am a farmer. I have never met a “retired” farmer. I think that we die with our boots on. I do follow trends in global agriculture the best I can. It can easily get overwhelming and I have limits, as we all do, in what I can do. Staying focused is important. The Floodplains Partnership sounds interesting and worth looking into. Thank you for the lead.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Robert on November 29, 2023, 05:04:50 PM
Robert,

Those are very beautiful landscapes and very skillful photographs!
I used to enjoy hiking into remote areas taking photographs and collecting seeds.
I am now physically unable to hike or use a camera. I am still enjoying plants grown from seed collected when I was able to hike.

Hi Marc

We all live with limitations. It is good to read that you still find great fulfillment and enjoyment in the plants you have grown from seed you gathered in the past. Based on your comments it sounds like you are still enjoying gardening and plants immensely despite your physical limitations. This sounds like a good thing to me.  :)
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: MarcR on November 29, 2023, 09:02:48 PM
Hi Marc

We all live with limitations. It is good to read that you still find great fulfillment and enjoyment in the plants you have grown from seed you gathered in the past. Based on your comments it sounds like you are still enjoying gardening and plants immensely despite your physical limitations. This sounds like a good thing to me.  :)



Robert,

I do indeed still enjoy gardening; and I also enjoy contributing to others' enjoyment. Now I garden on my hands and knees instead of on my feet.

Believe it or not, I still manage to keep .875 acre of mostly beds relatively weed free.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Jeffnz on November 29, 2023, 11:08:17 PM
I hope that you are using a padded knee pad with side arms to help push up to vertical, Without this I would not be amble to weed or plant out.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: MarcR on November 30, 2023, 02:06:16 PM
Jeff,

I use 2 oval discs of thick foam mattress material covered with strips of saddle leather taped over my knees & legs, under my clothing. They are not as good as real knee pads; but they work for me.  They need to be replaced frequently; but I have a discarded foam mattress to cut them from.  The leather lasts much longer than the foam.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on December 04, 2023, 10:22:21 AM
Dodecatheon clevelandii is found in similar habitats throughout California. Most likely this species would not grow at all in your climate – too cold during the winter – too wet during the summer

Robert, thank you for the advise. 
I didn't order D.clevelandii now, only the other ones and hopefully get some seeds. :)
It is cold here now, last night -20C, but luckily there is some snow cover to protect my plants.
Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Robert on December 04, 2023, 06:17:35 PM
Hi Leena,

My understanding is that you have requested seed of Dodecatheon frigidum and D. pauciflorum from the seed exchange?

I have never grown Dodecatheon frigidum. From what I have read about the species it appears that it would be cold hardy and tolerant of summertime moisture. Perhaps this species would be a very good candidate for your garden. It seems well worth the effort to give it a try. I will be extremely curious with your results with this species.

There seems to be a great deal of taxonomic disagreement surrounding the whole Primula pauciflora complex. Lumped into this is Dodecatheon pauciflorum, as well as a large spectrum of similar, yet still quite distinct and variable plants. Plants known as Dodecateon pulchellum have been lumped into this group.

Based on my experiences and observations Primula/Dodecatheon appear to be an outbreeding species. Unless measures are taken to control pollination, they will easily cross with other species. This is my experience. I would be skeptical of the purity of any garden seed where two or more species are grown in close proximity with each other. I have observed clouds of pollen being shed from the ripe anthers – much like what ones sees on ripe maize (corn) tassels. I cross-pollinate all my Primula/Dodecatheon in isolation or under a plastic cloche.

Another consideration might be possible genetic bottlenecks. If indeed Primula/Dodecatheon are outbreeding species, then selfed (some outbreeders will not self, such as many Lilium species) plants may be genetically weak due to the buildup of detrimental and lethal recessive genes. This can be especially true when outbreeding species have been selfed for a number of generations, or inadequate numbers of plants have been allowed to cross-pollinate with each other. These issues inform concerns I have when I read lists of offerings on seed exchanges; the history of the seeds is unknown, one can get all sorts of both pleasant and unwanted results, and unintended hybrids are common.

Currently I have a batch of Primula pauciflora coming along obtained from a location on the east side of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. These plants keyed to Primula pauciflora based on Jepson’s Vascular Plants of California – The University of California, Berkeley. At least I have some sort of reference point with these plants. As they progress I will report on my results. Hopefully some of this information will prove informative and useful for those wanting to grow Primula/Dodecatheon in their garden, despite our distinct climates.

Currently (Monday morning) it is foggy here in Sacramento, California. In general the temperatures have been well above average and precipitation below average. There is very little snow in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Snow totals at the highest elevations are about 25% of average. At lower elevations snow totals are 0 - 5% of average. This is a worrisome trend at this point in the precipitation season. Snow generally accumulates quickly from 1 December to 1 April in the Sierra Nevada.

There are few plants blooming in our garden at this time, however many of the Narcissus romieuxii types and hybrids have large visible flower buds. Generally they start blooming around 1 January. With all the warm weather they may begin blooming much earlier this year. I will report the outcome.

Title: Re: November 2023 in the Northern Hemisphere
Post by: Leena on December 05, 2023, 02:40:45 PM
Hi Leena,

My understanding is that you have requested seed of Dodecatheon frigidum and D. pauciflorum from the seed exchange?

I have never grown Dodecatheon frigidum. From what I have read about the species it appears that it would be cold hardy and tolerant of summertime moisture. Perhaps this species would be a very good candidate for your garden. It seems well worth the effort to give it a try. I will be extremely curious with your results with this species.

Yes, I put D.frigidum in the main order and D.pauciflorum in the extra numbers, so I'm not sure if I get that, but we'll see.
I will report how they do here if I get seeds. Most likely I will keep them in the cellar for the first winter, just to be sure they are big enough to survive when they get planted to the ground.
I do this with most new plants, just in case.

Thank you again for your experiences with these plants! :)
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